Two Fools on the Road to Emmaus Podcast – What is detachment? Can it influence the way we live and love? Mark and Mike examine how attachment and detachment shape the way we relate, use power, and minister to each other.
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Guys,
You missed me on this one, sorry/
All this talk about buildings, ministry, institutional whatever, brought up so many past nonsensical memories of having lived in that swamp myself.
In my opinion if we were recognize that everything outside of Christ is religion! Ergo, there is no sanctified lines of demarcation (secular vs sacred), e.g. we’re in the world but not of it…the whole world lies under the direct influence of Satan..don’t let the world squeeze you into its mold.
As I recently tried to touch upon this very subject, I am seeing that God the Father has his seed (sons and daughters) throughout this world system, and yes even in the entity referred to as the “IC”…but, it’s his life in us right where we’re at and that is not any less no mater where we are. It seems to be a given that God is everywhere in the lives of his children, but where he is really AT is in the holy gathering with the holy few gathered in the “holy place!
I find it truly amazing in that the new reality of Christ being made available to all men how in the beginning this new creation reality was soon simply seen as an add-on to Judaism, which imo became at first nothing more than a “Jewish Boy’s Club” until in the foolishness of His wisdom God chose Saul of Tarsus to wreak havoc amongst that club scattering them to the 4 corners of the world.
I could go on and on with this but won’t, suffice it to say if you would like to talk more about this, I would only be too happy to engage.
Much love to you both as you continue in your journey!
Thanks Richard, a few thoughts and I apologize if I misunderstood your post.
“You missed me on this one, sorry/ All this talk about buildings, ministry, institutional whatever, brought up so many past nonsensical memories of having lived in that swamp myself.”
We learned so much from our ‘nonsensical swamp’ and there are some wonderful memories of God genuinely meeting us in the midst of the mess and through relationship drew us (and others) further along the journey. We forge some life long friendships in this season as well. I am so thankful for those days because I wouldn’t be who I am today without those experiences.
“if we were recognize that everything outside of Christ is religion! Ergo, there is no sanctified lines of demarcation (secular vs sacred), e.g. we’re in the world but not of it…the whole world lies under the direct influence of Satan..don’t let the world squeeze you into its mold.”
I think I understand what you are trying to say though seems to me you contradict yourself in the same paragraph. You say “anything outside of Christ is religion”. An examples that suggests a wide sweeping condemnation and a dualism but you insist “there is no sanctified lines of demarcation (secular vs sacred).” I see the revelation is working its way through your thinking and don’t you think there are more implications? Doesn’t it go much further?
At risk of disagreeing over a part of doctrine, I’m struggling with your statement “the whole world lies under the direct influence of Satan..don’t let the world squeeze you into its mold.” Not so sure I agree with that. Seems to me God is at work redeeming us and all of creation and it seems to me that upon the Resurrection, when Jesus took His seat next to God, was in fact the inauguration of King Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that includes the world, and Satan was once and for all defeated. It was this declaration which got many of the first Christians Martyred at the hands of Caesar.
In the fullness of time all things will be subject to King Jesus – every knee will bow and every tongue confess. I also believe that Holy Spirit is at work in the world today to that end in the lives of believers and non-believers. I am not sure I want to give Satan that much power nor abdicate the world to him.
“in the beginning this new creation reality was soon simply seen as an add-on to Judaism, which imo became at first nothing more than a “Jewish Boy’s Club” until in the foolishness of His wisdom God chose Saul of Tarsus to wreak havoc amongst that club scattering them to the 4 corners of the world. ”
It would make sense that ‘The Way’ would be thought of as a Jewish splinter because historically there were many Jewish splinter groups and Jesus, the founder of Christianity was a Jew. People from the outside looking in would understandably see it that way, even today!
The criticism that early Christianity was a “Jewish Boys Club”, in my opinion is off base in that you have folks who have a past (as Jews) and are trying to figure out what it means to live this new way in Christ. Jesus came for the Jews first and upon this basis it makes sense that initially His followers would have been predominantly Jewish. (Jesus observed Jewish traditions, feasts and re-interpreted them within Himself. Jesus then would have been at the centre of a Jewish Boys Club.)
Their paradigm was shifting as the revelation does its renovating work. Their mission then was to reach out to the Gentiles but this was a product of revelation working its way through their worldview. They were where they were and they learned, they grew and many of the insights we have today have been built upon the insights (mistakes and wisdom) of those who have come before us.
I too am thankful for Paul the reforming Pharisee (a Good Jewish Boy himself!) who was radically transformed but his past was still a part of who he was. Also, I think of Peter and his vision about the sheet being lowered from Heaven and God telling him not to call unclean that which He has made clean.
As I write this already too long note, I think about Michel Foucault a contemporary philosopher who like Nietzsche suggested that all truth claims were attempts by those in power to assert influence over others. Of course making this claim is in itself a truth claim and therefore must be a grab for power. This to say; I think we can deconstruct to absurdum, until what we come up with loses touch with reality, even Kingdom reality. It becomes so abstract and without any real significance to the real life of a believer in the real world. Faith in Christ is not lived in the abstract of argument and philosophy but in the forge of real life.
In Jesus, God personified truth and therefore made truth concrete (not abstract) and it is interaction with the person of truth and relationship in everyday lives; even through broken imperfect systems created by people who attempt to live an ideal bigger than themselves (in Christ), from the swamps and the high places.
In the podcast we were talking about living from relationship and not being owned by anything but not categorically rejecting those things as bad. There is some unhealth I think with the rejection of all systems as evil, as ‘the way of the world’. For example, we have cultural systems / conventions – ie: language, laws and basic conventions of relationship. We have laws in our communities to assist folks in living in community, maintaining certain values, co-operation, protecting the weak and standing united against those who are bullies. I think we can all agree these systems can be very loving and very necessary.
When we speak about detachment we are talking about a freedom to use whatever is helpful towards pointing us to God and being free enough that when that tool no longer serves that purpose to discard it. To hold things loosely and not allow the tradition, our position, gifting, money, stained glass or style of music, etc to become an identity. It’s not about having money or not having money it is simply being faithful in relationship with the Father to keep money (or whatever) in its proper, healthy perspective.
I am convinced the issue is all heart, human heart. We like power – to be right, we like to be the smartest, in control, we like to think we have some cutting edge insight, etc.. This brokeness hijacks ideas of truth and our best attempts to live together as a Jesus centred community locally and universally. Separate from a relationship with Jesus any system (even non-systems) can become abusive, legalistic and religious as hell. I also am aware that even two brothers, both ardently devoted to Jesus and walking in relationship can still tear each other apart over a point of doctrine. It is the work of Christ in each of our lives which renovates our hearts and begins to restore health.
Seems to me religion (in its worst sense) is resident in the hearts of every human being. It is this brokeness which abuses truth and seeks to control others with truth claims. It is the brokeness of human beings which creates oppressive forms of systems. It is not systems or truth claims per sae but the heart, motive within them from people. I think we do a disservice when we naively demonize systems, truth claims etc. and fail to look at the real culprit – in the mirror. Jesus came to set us free from sin, to heal us from our brokeness and free us to be loved, to love Him and others. Healthy people will relate to others in healthy ways, through healthy systems (in varying degrees of formality), in truth governed by loved. To make systems or truth claims or Satan or whatever the “whipping boy” will result in the same brokeness manifesting regardless of the form, system or non-system.
That’s why we did the podcast to introduce detachment, that’s why we are so stoked on relationship with Jesus because healthy thinking and healthy experience brings about healthy relationship with Jesus and then with others. My experience tells me this is a process, a journey marked with bumps and bungles along the way but God is faithful and uses these as teachable moments LOL! While God may not ordain certain things, He is so good to redeem our mistakes and meet us where we are at!
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